Jesus, Jesus, He's Our Man! If He Can't Do It, No One Can!

I was going to post about Jesus yesterday, you know, in honor of Easter and all, but the day required much lying about and consuming of fat free Chocolate Meringues (I ate the whole tub from Trader Joe’s; I am so skipping weigh-in this week). I was feeling pretty blue.

I tend to have delayed emotional reactions. On Thursday, I stopped by the hospital to see Melanie and her twins. Then on Saturday night Charlie and I babysat Elise’s daughter and Miss P was just a perfect little girl (when we convinced her to go to bed, I put her in her crib and she said, “Turn out the light!” It was adorable). I felt fine through all of this, but then on Sunday I couldn’t get out of bed.

I’m so tired of feeling sad, but I thought it would be a good idea to honor that. And use chocolate as an anti-depressant.

But enough about that! Let’s talk about Jesus.

So I was shopping at Whole Foods the other day, and I couldn’t resist picking up a copy of the most recent issue of Utne Magazine (is there a sentence that could MORE clearly identify me as super liberal?) because it was focusing on issues of faith (Utne—Norwegian for “far out”—is basically a clearinghouse of liberal thought. The staff scans small presses for interesting articles and re-publishes them).

The whole issue was fascinating, but the article “Heaven Can’t Wait: Jesus was a radical, and it’s about time we start saying so” by David Schimke really caught my attention. He discusses the two most common interpretations of Jesus. To quote:

“For many, what matters most is that Jesus was a divine spirit who died for their sins. To accept him as your savior is to be saved, and the pursuit of that salvation is paramount. For a smaller percentage of believers, Jesus was a peasant revolutionary who lived by example and died for it. To model your behavior after his is to bring earth closer to heaven.”

For a long time I was pretty anti-Jesus, I must confess. I tended to agree with the poet Robinson Jeffers—he called Jesus “that confused Jewish poet.” But I’ve softened my opinion, thanks to Christians like Moxie and Anne Lamott.

In her book Traveling Mercies (yes, one of my favorites, for all you people that asked about the books I read), Anne Lamott talks about her spiritual awakening and how it helped her get sober. When she was in the depths of despair, she called a minister and asked him for help. She asked him what it means to be saved and he said, “I guess it’s like discovering you’re on the shelf of a pawnshop, dusty and forgotten and maybe not worth very much. But Jesus comes in and tells the pawnbroker, ‘I’ll take her place on the shelf. Let her go outside again.’” How could that vision of Jesus not warm your heart? That sounds pretty radical to me.

Jesus being a radical is hardly a new idea—just recently I’ve heard Jim Wallis, head of  Sojourner Magazine, talk about this very idea on NPR and The Daily Show. So, in honor of this idea, I decided to whip out my bible (ha! you though I didn’t own one, didn’t you? In fact, I have several versions! So there!) and look into it.

In fact, the bible is full of radical ideas. For instance, here are The Beatitudes from Matthew (Matthew 5:3-12) (um, the bible I’m using is The New American Bible, St. Anthony Guild Edition, so it may be different from yours if you are playing along at home):

How blest are the poor in spirit; the reign of God is theirs.

Blest too are the sorrowing; they shall be consoled.

Blest are the lowly; they shall inherit the land.

Blest are they who hunger and thirst for holiness; they shall have their fill.

Blest are they who show mercy; mercy shall be theirs.

Blest are the single-hearted for they shall see God.

Blest too the peacemakers; they shall be called Sons of God.

Blest are those persecuted for holiness sake; the reign of God is theirs.

Blest are you when they insult you and persecute you

and utter every kind of slander against you because of me.

Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is great in heaven;

They persecuted the prophets before you in the very same way.

Now, there are some wonderful things in there—showing mercy, making peace, consoling the sorrowing. That is radical. I also like the idea of “the lowly inheriting the land” (better known as “the meek shall inherit the earth”). It makes me think about the idea of humility. Attaining humility is an excellent spiritual aim—in fact, in recovery, it’s the main goal. Becoming right-sized is critical; learning to be “one among many, a worker among workers” is the primary goal of much of the soul searching we do in recovery. I misunderstood the concept of humility when I first got sober; I thought it meant suffering humiliation, when in fact it means recognizing and honoring my assets as well as my defects (for instance, it would be lacking in humility for me to call myself a shitty writer—especially after so many of you told me how much you liked my writing—just as it would be lacking in humility for me to call myself the best writer ever).

Of course, then you get the last few lines, about being persecuted for your beliefs. Those lines have been the battle cry for everyone from Civil Rights marchers to the Operation Rescue people. ANYONE can declare themselves holy and right and use any resistance to their ideas as proof that they are prophets.

Therein lies the rub—the crux of the issue—the shit that fertilizes the mushrooms of righteousness.

People.

People misread, misinterpret, and fuck up the basic message of Jesus all the time. In fact, we don’t even know how accurately the bible portrays the words of Jesus anyway. Most of the New Testament was written years after Jesus died, and he didn't actually write ANY of it . And even the best parts of the bible have been terribly misinterpreted.

A great case in point in Mary Magdalene. You know, the prostitute that Jesus hung out with? Except that nowhere in the bible does it actually say that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute (thank you Discovery Channel for clueing me in to this tidbit). She is only called a “sinner” (in fact, everyone is a sinner before God, right?). The early church declared her a prostitute, since after all, sex is how women sin, right? Maybe she was a shoplifter. Or murdered her abusive husband. Or wouldn’t marry her parent’s choice for her. Who knows?

Great parts of the bible are also ignored. Every television evangelist manages to ignore the whole story of Jesus driving the moneychangers out of  the Temple. He felt money had no place with worship. Interesting, no?

The bible is also full of contradictions and some nasty ideas and rather a fetish for stoning, don’t you think? People will argue, oh, that's only in the Old Testament, not part of Jesus' message at all. Except all that anti-gay crap ALSO comes from the Old Testament, and right-wing Christians are willing to utilize that little tidbit (for an excellent discussion of homosexuality in the bible, check this out. In fact, the whole site is really fascinating).

The point is, no one knows what exactly Jesus actually said. So, if you ask me, trying to create heaven on earth by living a kind and responsible life, therefore following the example of Jesus, is the best way to be a good Christian. In fact, if tolerance, patience, a love of our fellows and an open heart means being a Christian, then sign me up. THAT I can get behind. As David Schimke says in the article in Utne Magazine, “…the Jesus I met in the bible would be more concerned about curing AIDS than outlawing homosexual marriage, more troubled by world hunger and violence than an erosion of ‘family values.’”

Now that I know so many of you who read this blog are Christians, I’d love to know; what do you think? What’s more important, salvation or doing good works? I’m very interested in your responses. Also, you non-Christians, if you managed to get through this whole thing, I'd love to hear from you as well.

Now: KEEP IT CIVIL! Civilized discussion benefits everyone. Remember, LOVE AND TOLERANCE IS OUR CODE. Nasty comments will be deleted immediately. Disagreement is permitted, but hatred is not. Mm'k? K.

Go!

Comments

[Sarah]

1.

Hey I'm first!

I loved this post. In the best tradition of the south, I say "Preach it Sister!"

I am continually horrified by the hyjacking of Jesus for the newest forms of persecution. In my mind, Jesus is synomous with compassion. When chritianity becomes another site of persecution, it has totally lost its core values.

Sarah

[DMouse]

2.

"the Jesus I met in the bible would be more concerned about curing AIDS than outlawing homosexual marriage, more troubled by world hunger and violence than an erosion of ‘family values.’”

Too damn right. I cannot have any faith in a Jesus who is more interested in what people are doing in bed, than in children dying for want of clean water and medication.

[Miriam]

3.

Right on, sister! I think Jesus was most certainly a social revolutionary, someone who disrupted the social stratus because he wasn't afraid to touch and help the lowest in his society. There is SO MUCH in the bible, old and new testaments (or to be more inclusive, Hebrew and Christian Scriptures), about taking care of the poor and needy, and I think we tend to gloss over that whole subject sometimes.

Regarding what Jesus actually said and did, you're right, we absolutely can't know for sure. But there is a group of religious scholars known as the Jesus Seminar who set out to research just that. They coded the gospels according to what they think, according to their extensive research, Jesus a) almost certainly said, b) probably said something similar to, c) Jesus probably didn't say and d) Jesus almost certainly didn't say. Of course many critics have their panties in a wad over the whole concept, but I just find it an interesting discussion. For more interesting reading on the historical Jesus, I love Marcus Borg's book, "Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time." It's also fascinating to read some of gospels that DIDN'T make it into our bibles...

BTW, thanks for bringing up the Mary Magdalene thing. It's one of my pet peeves -- don't know how many times I've had to get out my bible to settle that one. That, and the fact that there are two creation stories with different orders!

[Yatima]

4.

I'm an ex-Christian. I think of myself as culturally Christian, the way my Jewish friends are culturally Jewish: I love hot cross buns and and John Donne and Allegri's Miserere.

If I'd grown up an ordinary Anglican (that's Episcopalian, for you crazy Americans) I'd probably still be a churchgoer. But I grew up in a particularly horrible evangelical Sydney Anglican parish, where at least four men, including the minister, were sleeping with pre-pubescent girls. Not with me, I'm glad to say - I think my funny, ferocious agnostic Daddy scared them away. But friends of mine. The scandals have all come out in the last few years, like maggots out of roadkill. I'm still crying over things that happened twenty years ago.

Frankly, I have no time for triumphalist so-called Christians. I have no patience with televangelists or teenage athletes who say God wanted them to win some stupid nowheresville football game. I have some pretty serious issues with any omniscient being who would allow two such apocalyptic earthquakes in Sumatra in the space of just three months. I know in my bones that I am a chimpanzee, that my DNA has evolved from non-human bipedal hominids, just as I know that the earth is a sphere that revolves around the sun.

But something still tugs at the god-centers in my brain, however much I try to ignore it or rationalize it away. In moments of terror I still pray, although these days I address my prayers to Epona, Goddess of Horses, who is the personification of the courage I inherited from that fierce agnostic Dad of mine.

I'm not remotely interested in any deity who would condemn my atheist husband, the best human being I've ever met, and my dear friend Wendy who died when we were both fourteen, to Hell. I can't stand the Apostle Paul and I don't care about anything he has to say. Mel Gibson could disappear from the face of the earth and I wouldn't even notice.

Jesus, though, angry Jesus chasing the moneylenders out of the temple, gentle Jesus playing with kids and eating with tax-collectors, visionary Jesus blessing the peacemakers - I think that Jesus would be turning water into wine at lesbian weddings, and crying over the children drowned in the tsunami, and not caring a damn who wins a high school football game.

The thought of that Jesus doesn't comfort me with the conviction that I'm right about everything. He troubles me with the possibility that I'm wrong. He's not a rock star. He's the crack-addled streetwalker I passed on the way to work. He's the kid in Afghanistan who stepped on a land mine. He's not a pastel-pink security blankie, he's the stinging of my conscience. He came not to bring peace, but a sword.

[Susan]

5.

I am all for the doing good works. I find it ironic that those who espouse "Christian values" are the ones who are the least tolerant...so un-Jesus of them.

[Linda]

6.

These phrases jumped out at me in that article:

"For a smaller percentage of believers, Jesus is a peasant revolutionary who lived by example and died for it. To model your behavior after his is to bring earth closer to heaven."

"Before he could recover, I went on to explain that while I appreciated his preoccupation with salvation, my main concern was good works. That the Jesus I met in the Bible would be more concerned about curing AIDs than outlawing homosexual marriage, more troubled by world hunger and violence than an erosion of "family values."

"In short, conservative bullies who have become comfortable claiming to speak for God on issues from abortion to military aid will no longer have dominion over the pulpit."

Loved it. I am a Christian, btw.

I go to a church whose teaching pastor is very good at putting Scripture into context. What was going on politically, socially, economically at that time? What was the Jewish culture like? What was the original Hebrew and where else was that word or phrase used in the Bible? Why was that particular English word chosen? It has opened my eyes to the use of Scripture for selfish means.

As for salvation vs works: good luck. It's one of those debates that has gone on for years and isn't going to be resolved now, even if it is interesting to discuss. If you get the answer, though, will you let me know?

[AB]

7.

I love the way you explained this concept. I'm a lifelong Christian, now going through the rethinking process. Everything is a question mark in my mind.

Regardless, I took a Bible course in college. We studied the Bible as a piece of literature (English major) and I was horrified to find out that there were two (two!) stories of Adam and Even inside the same Bible and two stories of Noah's Ark. How did I miss that in all those years of Sunday school and confirmation?!

We ended up reading the entire Bible, cover to cover in one semester, including the Apocrypha. Who knew there were books that were removed from the Bible?! Most of them were books where women were powerful or they used their gender to do the works of God.

It really opened a can of worms for me and I haven't stopped asking questions since.

[usually a lurker]

8.

I'm Christian - I'm part of the Anglican church in the UK. I'm gonna put in a disclaimer now, to save putting one in every other sentance - these are just my personal thoughts and beliefs. No offence is intended to those with other views. To me Christianity is about accepting that Jesus died to save me (and everyone else) from the consequence of sin, and repenting of that sin, with total belief in God and in Jesus. Whilst good works are a great thing, and something Christians should be doing, it's neither necessary nor sufficient for being a Christian. I sin all the time, and as far as I'm concerned, everyone does. The amount or magnitude of that sin is not really relevant - none of us is good enough to know God. Whether or not (for example) homosexuality is a sin, whether or not premarital sex is a sin is not really my place to judge. I choose not to do those things, because I personally believe them to be wrong. But that doesn't give me any right to try and stop anyone else from deciding that they are perfectly fine and acting on that belief. It really annoys me when people try to force their choices onto others - or worse legislate them into law.

I try very hard not to judge people who make different choices to mine - if someone asks I will tell them about my beliefs, but I don't believe in "Bible bashing" people. My priority should be (and I work on this all the time) my own life and sinning, my own belief and faith and reliance on God, not what my neighbours are doing - the whole "he who is without sin should cast the first stone" thing.

I forget who wrote it, but I read a book a while back about sin. The message being that the sin we should all really be worrying about is the hateful thoughts we have, our lack of charity and compassion and love, not whether or not we have pre-marital sex or allow abortion. Because all the actions and good works and sexual abstinence and the rest cannot possibly compensate for a hating, bitter heart.

Anyway, to answer your question (and this is merely my personal view) God's grace and salvation are the important bits. No-one is capable of the perfection needed to earn our way into heaven with good works (except Jesus) and therefore we are completely dependant on God's grace and mercy to get there. Good works are merely the expression of our thankfulness to God for His grace. I find the sanctimonius arrogance of some Christians scary - like they're better than others because of their faith or good works. Most true Christians I know are in fact all too aware of their own sin, their own failings, to be looking down their nose judging others. I try daily to be more like them.

[Trish]

9.

I'm a marginal Pagan, so my views probably don't count anyways ;)

I think the views you just represented of Jesus is how I feel about him as well. The reason I shun the Christian faith is not because of the loving, tolerant people that I have met on occasion- but because of the bigotry and prejudice that tends to spew from the loudest Christians' mouths. I think for the most part, Christians as a whole 'group' of people have acted shamefully in time past and in the present as well. From the Crusades to the more recent issues we have occuring amongst us- is that what Jesus would have wanted? I just cannot imagine it when I read the Bible- when MY voice dictates what I should feel when I read it, rather then listening to a preacher at a pulpit, all brimstone and fire.

Cecily- look, I love you.

PS Do you mind if I steal your name if I have a girl baby? Imitation is the most sincerest form of flattery a girl can get, I'm told.

[Charlie]

10.

First let me say...Wow. Quite a thought-provoking post.

It's pretty easy to point out the glaring contradictions between Christ and Christianity; i.e., between what Jesus is said to have done and what humans have done (and continue to do) in his name. It's quite a mess really.

For example, I was just reading about some of the conquistadors like Pizarro, Cortez, de Soto, Balboa and the like, who spread Christianity at the tip of a sword. I'm not a Christian, but I think Jesus might be a little angry about that. But I think it's indicative of the human failings that have spoiled the faith for me. (And I emphasize FOR ME. If others can make their peace, please do. My dad did, after years of spiritual searching, and he was content with his choice.) But for me, it just seems that so many greedy, violent, hateful acts have been hidden behind the cloak of spirituality that I get tired of trying to sort it all out. And I'm not just indicting the Christians either. Nearly every large religious institution has some blood on its hands. Just ask the Muslims, as they endure the pain of their religion's angry adolescence, not too far a cry from the Spanish Inquisition now is it. The ironic part is that most of this bloodshed seems to be aimed at determining which is the "one true faith." If there even is such a thing, I somehow doubt that Jesus or Muhammad or Buddha or any other spiritual figure worth our faith would want this issue decided by a steel-cage death match.

In my book, kindness is the "one true religion" and its enemies are fear, greed, and resentment.

[Moxie]

11.

Personally, I think a lot of the Bible is deliberately contradictory. God gave/gives us free will, and that means responsibility, and that means using our brains and hearts. So why would God give us specific instructions on every step of our lives? The big ones are covered: I love you. Love one another. How much more specific do we really need the Bible to be? The biggest part of free will is realizing that most things that happen are truly random. God doesn't reward the faithful with everything we want, because otherwise it wouldn't really be our free choice to come to God, would it? My faith is trying to know and feel that God is walking with me, even through the shitty things, and that God is sad when bad things happen to me and thrilled when good things happen.

Linda, I think the contradictions like salvation by faith vs. good works are there to keep us talking about it. Because doubt and questioning and interaction are the essences of faith.

For me the biggest tough spot is accepting that God loves me completely exactly the way I am. That's really hard to wrap my brain around.

[Andrew]

12.

Great topic, great posts.

I could really go on for a while, but I think I'll just add a couple things.

Trish, the passages dealing with Jesus ministering to 'pagans' are many; your views count for a lot. You make a great point about what the loudest 'Christians' sound like. I think it is time for those of us (whether Christian or no) who believe in mercy and justice, humility and compassion, to get a little louder.

It's fascinating to me in reading the Gospels that the two things that apparently made Jesus really mad were:

A) Social and economic injustice.
B) Religious hypocracy. See Matthew 23 for a particularly scathing pronouncement.

Which seems to be the two things that 'the loud' seem to represent in spades. And also seem to be the things that most people point to and say, 'there's why I am not a Christian.'

Great stuff, Cecily - thanks for posting.

[Michelle]

13.

Wonderful post...

I would most classify myself as an agnostic...

I have a button that says "Stop using Jesus as an excuse for being a narrow-minded bigoted asshole"

I love that. To me, whether Jesus was just a man or whether he was so much more..he was the definition of tolerance and of love.

I can't go to any Christian church without being told that something or someone is wrong, so I don't go. I believe in gay marriage, and the right to choose and stem cell research.

I guess my point is..I think that a lot of churches are doing a great disservice to Jesus.

[Catherine]

14.

I will preface this by saying I'm a lifelong agnostic and only started looking into spiritual matters in sobriety. That said, I posted the following on another blog:

I went to church yesterday, for Easter. I went to an Episcopalian church. I was raised Catholic (never believed) and Episcopalians are like Catholic-lite. They still have the pretty mass, but their priests are married (or even gay), they are okay with divorce and pro-choice. It's a much more tolerant church than the Catholics. I like it.

The church I went to is St Mark's, in Center City. It's a beautiful stone gothic church, with soaring high ceilings and great stained glass. I've been there before. As soon as I walk in, I feel more relaxed, more peaceful I guess. They have these old guys handing out programs and they're so nice, so welcoming, genuine big smiles on their faces.

I am struck by how much church attendance has dwindled since I was a kid. Even on Easter Sunday yesterday, the church wasn't totally packed. It used to be standing-room only when I was young.

I think that's partially because the churches have made a lot of mistakes, but I also think it's because there's such a lack of personal responsibility and "doing the right thing" in our society these days. How many people do you know (other than recovering alcoholics) do things that they really don't feel like doing, but they know will be good for them? I think that number is very small.

Anyway, I am seriously considering attending church regularly. I think I might become an Episcopalian. Anyone who knows me from before (before I got sober) would fall over if they heard that. I don't know if church makes me feel closer to my higher power, but it makes me feel calm, safe, and like a better person. That can't be a bad thing...

[KimN]

15.

I have to admit, I was nervous about what you were going to say on this post. I was expecting a full out lashing of christians which I read on most blogs. My heart was hurting before I even began reading. Thank you for being thoughtful and respectful. I appreciate your honest thoughts on Jesus.

To answer your question, he would be more concerned with his relationship with you or me (a.k.a. salvation). He didn't die on a cross a painful death so that we could do things for him. He did it out of love for people, for you, me, the homosexual, the adulteror, the sinner, the televangelist. He did it for everyone, no matter what their lifestyle, no matter what their mistakes.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing good works. He did indeed lead by example and even the Bible says, faith without works is dead. In otherwords, if faith doesn't inspire you to do go things, it isn't faith at all. To put it bluntly, you are a hypocrite if you aren't trying to do good works but claim to be a believer.

On a second note. I agree, that christians themselves totally wreck the message of the Bible with their own lives. When that happens, people no longer see through them to Jesus, but instead get stuck looking at the nastiness that some christians spew out. I am a christian and live in constant fear that the example of my life is what will turn someone off to Christ. The truth is, the message is truly beautiful and moving if you look past the bad examples of christians past.

Just my thoughts.

[manogirl]

16.

I've always thought that if Jesus showed up today, he'd be, like he was then, treated as a criminal. I just think that he'd be like the homeless black guy on the corner, who says outlandish things and claims to be the son of god. Would people really be okay with that? Would people believe it was him? They didn't so much then, did they?

Anyway, I'm not a Christian, so maybe I'm just making this all up. But I do believe that you can use the bible to justify anything you want to justify, if you look hard enough. And that's not so convincing to people like me.

[Julie]

17.

Great post Cecily!

For what it's worth... from your Jewish friend... I believe that good works will bring you closer to your G-d and, therefore, your salvation.

Happy Easter!

[MollieBee]

18.

This is going to sound stupid, so forgive me. Have you ever seen Jesus Christ Superstar? That's the Jesus and Mary I keep in my head. She loved him and He loved everyone. Isn't that the simple message of being christian? Love, baby. Love your brother and everyone else. I'm lucky/unlucky enough to have been exposed to many religions, but never been churched.

[Jen (yup, another one)]

19.

Thanks for an eye-opening post.

Religion makes me uncomfortable, so most of the time I don't think about it. During my childhood I was exposed to a variety of attitudes about religion: my Catholic grandmother who goes to church twice a week or more and insisted that my Episcopalian grandfather convert (but not go to church with her); my dad who was raised Catholic but only goes to church at the behest of others; my mom and stepdad who are actively involved in their Episcopal church (committees, Sunday School, readings, etc.) but never, ever talk about God, faith, or what religion means to them; and my stepmom, who never talked about religion or went to church but sang hymns and religious folksongs with a passion that could bring tears to your eyes - and once screamed at me out of the blue for "taking the Lord's name in vain". Not to mention Jewish, agnostic, and atheist friends who showed me other ways to act and believe.

What I took from this mishmosh was the value of community and connection, but no belief. As an adult, I've sought out community in a variety of religious and non-religious arenas, and like Unitarian Universalism best, but I've never really wrestled with the faith aspect. As I've dealt with various losses, I've observed the comfort that others around me derive from faith, and wished I had something like that, but it's not there and I don't know how to get it> Plus, I'm not sure I want everything else that comes along with it. God and Jesus freak me out a bit, but I haven't stopped to think about why. I think I am afraid that embracing religion, particularly one with God and/or Jesus, would change who I am. And surely it would. But perhaps not in the ways that I fear.

Knowing that there are thoughtful, compassionate, intelligent, liberal, and funny people who have and wrestle with their own faiths, like Moxie, and Jody, and you do encourages me to open that door in my mind and look inside. The resources that you mentioned in this post are fascinating. Hopefully I'll have the courage to take advantage of them.

[Chantal]

20.

My disclaimer is that I am a practicing Catholic going through a slight "crisis of faith" at the moment. I don't feel heard in my Faith right now. I've tried to open dialogue with some of my fellow parishioners, but I get either complete apathy or told that if I think these things, then I am not a true Catholic and perhaps I should move on. Perhaps I should.

I rejoined the Catholic Church (I never really left, just didn't go for a long time) for my children. They attend Catholic School and are receving an excellent education. There is no politics in the curriculum. This is Canada, so I doubt there ever will be. There is no discussion of same sex marriage or abortion (yet) and I like it that way. I want them to learn from me that it is a person's right to choose who they spend their life with and a woman's right to choose the path for her body.

With so much media coverage in both Canada and the US regarding the "Right to Life" campaign, I see many interviews with (extreme) Conservative Christians. My view from some of those at rallies and protests is them using the Bible and the idea of Jesus as a crutch. Blind faith in the words of a pastor, organization or diocese to me seems like a very convenient way to avoid really examining the issues and making a decision to accept all people as Children of God. I mean really ACCEPT. I respect that there will always be those who do not accept homosexuality or abortion, but I don't think they should be making the decisions for others to choose them.

I think I'm rambling and I'm sorry, but it's weighing heavy on my mind. I've had the opportunity to attend a United Church of Canada service and I am impressed and awed.

I am looking forward to the discussion here.

[K]

21.

I loved this post!

I feel that salvation and good deeds must go hand in hand...that salvation isn't just some hokie idea, but a change in being. It opens your heart, it cleanses the spirit, it shifts our thinking and should, in turn, shift our actions.

However, I do not believe salvation is a permanent condition, yet a work in progress. I do not believe "once saved, always saved." Also, I don't believe that any one religion has a corner on the market to salvation.

Religion is something created by man, being one with the spirit of God, being "saved," is something that each of us can obtain without being required to perform certain rites or attend x-number of services per week. Salvation is, to me, acknowledging our tendency to sin, asking for forgiveness, then leading a "righteous" life by choosing not to sin any more.

I view sin as something that causes someone else pain or suffering, or even causes ourself pain or suffering. This could be not taking care of our bodies.

I think that the ten commandments sums up "the rules" really well, and the beattitudes are wonderful guidelines for our treatment of our fellow man.

Kate
Non-denominational

[Dana]

22.

Wow. What a great post and great comments. I don't know if I can be nearly as eloquent as some of you others but for what it's worth - here's my two cents.

I consider myself a Christian but I do not regularly attend church. I pray - quite a bit at times - and feel that I am capable of having a personal relationship with my god without the intervention of others. I beleive that the deep message of Christianity is lost by the filter that is man. I don't think anyone has the correct answer and I do not believe in a religon of exclusion. I believe just about every faith and value system is all part of the larger whole - be that jewish, muslim, budhist or whatever.

At his core, Jesus represents love, forgiveness and tolerance - perhaps something we don't see too much of in our day-to-day lives. I am deeply saddened that so much intolerance is propagated under the guise of organized religon.

I also accept the fact that I do not know all the answers - I don't know why there is suffering, I don't know what religon has it "right"...but I don't think I have to. I just have to believe that there is a purpose, that there is a higher power and that it is my responsibility to that higher power to be a good person and do good works.

Anyway, I know I wrote a lot but I'm not sure I said anything.

Thanks for the thought-provoker, Cecily!

[sandy]

23.

Is there a category for Enraged Catholic? That's me. I would love to give you a tutorial on HOW WE GOT THIS WAY, (we is both Catholic and Protestant, because WE were the same back then when all this happened). Suffice it to say, the history is ugly, involves much murder and many conversions at the point of a sword and really horrible gender wars. I will send you (email if I can't figure out how to do it here) one of the most important books of the Bible -- one discarded by the early codifiers. This book is almost exclusively quotes from Jesus. This is the stuff...Jesus was the man, Christianity ain't nothing. Remember, the majority of the new testament is Paul's writings -- and he never even met Jesus.

[sarah]

24.

Raised as a Unitarian Universalist, I've spent much of my youth/young adulthood grappling with my religious beliefs - the double edged sword of a faith that wields the gift of choice. It's taken me a long time to come to terms with my beliefs about Jesus, and, Cecily, I think your post most accurately portrayed what has never articulated. One of the principal tenets of the UU faith is social justice, and it makes it easier to accept Jesus as someone who fought against inequity.

By the way, Catherine, I was surprised to read that attendance is dwindling. I was also at a center city church for easter (First UU) and I'd never seen the pews so full there. Here's hope that you find what you're looking for. That all of us do.

[Sandy]

25.

How much do I love Cecily for this post??? Thanks so much for the link to the Heaven Can't Wait article. I plan to read it again...and again.

I have lots of thoughts on your question, but the short answer for me is that to DO "Christian" things without understanding the example of Christ's life is just doing things. I have a friend who often says "May the peace of Christ disturb you" ~ not in a freak you out kind of way, but rather in the way that many here have described. The Jesus that I know and love would not be ok with the hurt and sadness that is going on in today's world. I agree with the poster that said "...all the actions and good works and sexual abstinence and the rest cannot possibly compensate for a hating, bitter heart." Bang on!!!

My husband and I are both what I would call strong Christians. We happen to be of the Catholic religion, but truthfully, there is soooo much about the formal Catholic Church that I disagree with. At the end of the day, when we're all up at the top of the mountain, I seriously doubt that there is going to be any judgment made about how often or where it was that I went to church. I do think, though, that I will be asked "have you done things I asked?" and I, for one, plan to be able to respond yes.

But I also don't think that doing those acts will "get" me salvation. I know I won't be able to articulate this well, so I just want to share a story (and sorry for hogging the blog comment space).

There is a young man who panhandles on a heavily trafficked median leading onto a major bridge in my city. I am rarely in the lane that is closest to him, but one day last week, I was. Now I had left home that morning in a foul mood. My husband and I had not left fighting, but we hadn't left in the kind of way that we usually do. Anyhow, I was the first car in the line up, right beside the young guy, so I rolled down my window and dropped a couple of loonies (that's a Cdn dollar for my non-Cdn friends!) in his cup.

Instead of walking away and hitting the other cars, this young guy stood there and talked to me for the duration of the light. He talked about the joy of a long weekend coming up, his hope that it warmed up a bit, just general chit chat for the length of that red light. And as the light turned green, he said to me "Peace of Christ and God bless you".

And I knew that I had just been speaking with Christ. My heart felt lighter, and I truly did feel blessed.

Sometimes I have to be Christ to others, and sometimes Christ is present to me through others. That was one of those days.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that by 'doing a Christian act' that day, I was given salvation by the very person I thought I was 'doing to'. Make any sense?

Thanks for this topic. It's awesome.

[Amie]

26.

As a Christian, I can't say there is anything in your post I disagree with. Jesus was a radical, I have no problem with that fact. No doubt that many people do things in Christs name that makes Him grieve, i'm sure I have.

I think a lot of problems arose when churches started writing their own doctrines/rules. All of a sudden we are straying from the fairly simple message of Jesus, and looking to churches (eg humans) to tell us what we can/cannot do, what is right/wrong.

[TarafromFF]

27.

Cecily--I love this post. I never got around to answering your survey from last week, but I was going to say that I wished you would write more about your faith/beliefs/religion. So I appreciate you writing about this and opening up the discussion.

I am a Christian..and I'm shamed to admit I don't feel qualified to respond to most of your questions despite growing up entrenched in everything "Christian" (although I'm always learning that much of what I grew up with was far from Christian). I attended Christian school all throughout (grade school, high school, college) and have seen some pretty nasty stuff done and said in the name of Jesus. I've always been taught that it's sinful to question what is being taught and even sinful to search for truth yourself (once in high school, where we were taught that speaking in tongues was sinful, I asked the question, "But if someone believed speaking in tongues was of God, would you say they aren't a Christian?" I think I was probably given detention for asking that question). Part of me still hangs on to that feeling of shame--maybe for fear of losing my salvation. Maybe because I have a long way to go to start truly thinking for myself and admitting that there were a whole lot of people screwing up my way of thinking all these years.

Anyway...you always continue to open my eyes so thank you.

[April]

28.

While enrolled in a religious institution for graduate school, I filed for divorce - severing an abusive relationship. I was shunned by the church, and told that I was an "embarassment" to the school for leaving him. And thus, I left organized religion too - and have only slipped in for a few Christmas Eve services since.

But I still see the face of God in the first streaks of lavendar that break over the ocean announcing the coming dawn. I feel the touch of God in the sunlight dappled through the summer trees, and in the warm sand beneath my feet.

Michael and I had t-shirts made that said "Jesus - the Original Democrat" made last year during the election. I think it is horribly sad that organized religion (not all mind you - but rather some very vocal and bigoted people) have managed to divert the teachings of Christ from helping your neighbor, feeding the hungry, and bringing a peaceful resolution to problems into a hatred spewing closed-minded blasphemy.

Religious zealots will always manage to pick and choose as it suits their fancy, just as strict constructionists of the constitution (a la Scalia) do so when it suits their agenda.

Meanwhile, while we bicker about homosexual unions, premarital sex and abortion - millions are starving and leading lives completely bereft of hope.

Peace be with you dear Cecily - and my apologies for such a long winded response. But very thought provoking post.

[Rose]

29.

A few of the above posts, and the larger question, mirror my problem with Christianity (I am not a Christian).

I have a difficult time accepting the premise that our dedication to God is first, our good works second. If there is a God, I like to imagine him (or her or it) as rewarding people for living their lives in love, regardless of whether or not they did it for him. Unfortunately, it seems as though we have to have done it for him, not solely because it was the right thing to do. And that is not something that I am interested in.

I want to believe in a God that would support my good works regardless of my feelings about him. Instead, I am getting the impression that my relationship with him is what is supposed to inspire my good works. And if I am inspired without him? Then, what, they don't count? Or they are not good enough? Would I really go to hell because the good work that I did wasn't in his name?

[usually a lurker, again]

30.

Sorry, don't normally post, and now I'm posting twice! Just wanted to add in that the person whose book I refered to earlier was CS Lewis, and the book was "Mere Christianity". Good read.

[RainbowW]

31.

a sponsor once told me that you can never go wrong if you just stick to the red words.

on the other hand, i'm one of those folks who's never been real interested in the new testament, because i was raised jewish, and jews (oh my motherfucking god!) don't do jesus.

other exciting tidbits:

mary wasn't a virgin. the greek word is correctly translated as "young woman." think about it: she was married to joseph. what does EVERY married couple want to do as quick as they can, as often as they can, at least until the new gets knocked off? and immaculate conception wasn't catholic church doctrine until 1853, check catholic.org.

mary magdeline wasn't a prostitute. she was, actually, jesus's wife. everybody was married. so was jesus. read it closely.

just examples.

[julie o]

32.

Wow, awesome topic and fascinating comments!

I feel like I’m thinking about this stuff all the time, between the current US climate, my conservative family who would love it if I’d come back to the Catholic church, my students, novels I read about Islam. . .I swear to God, I actually spent most of therapy today talking about Christianity.

One thing that gets me is people always focusing on “salvation.” To my empirical mind, no one actually knows what happens after we die, because none of us is dead yet! So to have such a huge focus on the afterlife seems so weird and naïve.

Then again, I’m not a Christian. I get Jesus and I admire what he preached. But they are all kind of instinctive things to do if you want to be a decent person, aren’t they? I personally don’t need someone else to tell me to do them, nor do I need to read a book like the Bible to know how to live a good life.

What helps me the most is the reading I do in Buddhism, which, to me is much more of a psychology than a religion. It tells me that I can quiet my noisy mind- probably the biggest goal I have in life- if I follow certain habits of thought.

What bothers me is, as it is with most people I know, the fact that some Christians, certainly the loudest and most well-funded and legally-defended, claim to know how others should live their lives. That idea has never resonated with me. I’ve been a vegetarian for 28 years and have never felt like I was supposed to push that on other people. Faith and religion seem so personal, like what you value in a mate or why you love your family.

[Rachel]

33.

When I'm being snotty, I tell myself Jesus was probably some unmedicated bi-polar guy who happened to be elevated to the status of God-hood by being in the right (wrong?) place and the right (wrong?) time.

When I'm not being snotty, my atheist self thinks there probably was a guy named Jesus, but I don't believe in God(s) or heaven/salvation/etc. I think the fellow had some solid things to say about the state of things around him, and some good advice for living a good life. I also think the information about his life and the things he was supposed to have said have been filtered and translated and censored so many times that it's almost meaningless to say, "Jesus said ..." anything.

[Anonymom]

34.

I'm an LDS convert (I was a devout Catholic before) and I don't disagree with what Cecily said. Jesus was pretty radical, and his ideas would be even more radical today.

As for curing AIDS and feeding starving children vs. preserving family values, I believe he would be concerned with ALL of it. Just as I believe there is no salvation without good works. We are here to do all we can; the atonement and resurrection make up the balance.

Thanks for running through the Beatitudes; they are always lovely and comforting.

[Irina]

35.

All rightie, I'm not a Christian, but here goes...

I view Jesus as a historical figure. Not Messiah, not Son of God, ... and probably not a prophet, either. However, I must acknowledge the significant role he has played as a human being, and many wonderful examples of spirituality, kindness, and forgiveness he has put forth. Having said, I must admit I have trouble projecting the way he'd judge what's right and wrong now. Since he was a human being, he was very much attached to the context in which he lived, and that context was a rather pious and conservative Jewish society struggling to preserve its culture in a much stronger Roman empire.

Although some of the thoughts he put forth were indeed radical for their times, I think he still pretty much followed all the "rules" of the Jewish society. He might, for instance, say that good works were more important than keeping all the traditions - but he'd still follow his traditions.

His followers probably took liberties with his teachings - which was necessary to spread faith to other nations and an inevitable result of subjective interpretations, and probably made his "break" with tradition more radical and definitive than it really was or was meant to be. In other words, Jesus, though a liberalizer, was also a Jew leaving in a very specific context and someone who stayed true to his faith. Which would make any predictions of his current views on politicized issues very problematic.

[Gigi]

36.

Just to clarify some points brought up by RainbowW:
First the Immaculate Conception becoming a catholic church doctrine in 1853 (actually it was in 1854) is the conception of the Virgin Mary free of the original sin in preparation for her to become the mother of God.
Second the catholic church reinstated Mary Magdalene to her non prostitute self in 1969 with an apology from the Pope
Third the Virginity of Mary has been a doctrine since the Council Of Ephesus in 431 (along with the dual nature of Jesus as both Man and God)

[Soper]

37.

I love you, Cece, for bringing this up.

I was raised Southern Baptist/Methodist, and now am floating through life as a religious eclectic. I try to live the teachings of Christ, because I believe they are good -- respect each other, be kind, play fair. I vote Democrat because I believe the planks of the party better reflect the message of Christ (although the politicans, sadly, sometimes don't).

A few years ago I discovered the writings of Epictetus, who taught moral progress rather than moral perfection. I think you would like his work -- check out http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/e/epictetu.htm for an overview.

[Anne Basso]

38.

Okay, I have several things. First of all, God has always been radical compared to the rest of the world. Look at the Jewish laws regarding the sexual satifaction of women. Did you know that a Jewish woman could say no to her husband persuing a new profession if it meant he'd have sex with her less? Or that the Jews believe that a happy marriage includes a sexually satisfied wife? That was pretty radical. Jesus traveled with women, he said that Mary (who washed his feet and dried them with her hair) should be spoken of wherever Jesus was. The early church met in the houses of women. Jesus first appeared to women (who weren't considered good witnesses) instead of to men. That was all pretty radical. There are other ways it's all radical, but as a woman I like those parts. They're actually very pro-feminine.

Second, Jesus was not against selling, even for the temple, but against the greed and the way it was setup to take advantage of people. The temple was supposed to be a house of prayer. But it also shows us that Jesus was more than a long haired hippie going around preaching free love. He could get angry when people were hurting one another. And it was an attack on the establishment of the corrupt system in place at the temple. Also, it fulfilled prophecy.

The anti homosexual sex thing (not anti homosexual, I don't like people who are anti homosexual as some people I love very much are homosexuals)is in the new testament, but not spoken of by Jesus (See 1 Corinthians chapter 6). And what people forget (cause we can be stupid) is that the bible condemns any sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman. But we don't see people on the street corners with signs saying "Quit living together, you fornicators! Turn to Jesus!" Too bad, too. A totally untapped group of sinners, don't you think?

The problem is that while Jesus came to take our place, to become as we are to show us the way home, he also told us to do it with love. The bible says that without love we are clanging cymbals. I'm human, I forget it too. But I trust in God to overlook my failings, and where possible to keep working in me to overcome them. And I pray that in the meantime I don't turn anyone away from Him.

I'm sorry you had a hard Easter. I've been thinking of you.

Blessings.

[pam]

39.

I learned a few things from the bible that I really like

-Never let the sun go down on your anger (This is quoted from the American Standard Bible, or Bible for Dummies)

and

-And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret

Like you said, there are a lot of contradictions in the Bible. It is written by humans, who are flawed. I just take what I can from it, personally.

[carmie]

40.

i am so thankful to see a post about jesus that isn't hurtfully exclusive or filled to the gills with invective.

i was raised in a really fucked-up cult, similar to some of the pentecostal/charismatic movements of the '60s (think kathryn kuhlman), except a lot more "out there". i walked away 9 years ago, as did my parents. however, i don't espouse any form of religion at this point, and my parents are still locked in with a legalistic apostolic church.

but i've always felt that jesus wouldn't have felt comfortable with the church i grew up in. i've never felt that jesus is ok with people hurting other people, people destroying their planet, people using his name to tear other people down, etc. i don't know if i'll ever be able to get past the way so many "christians" have behaved to allow myself to have a relationship with jesus again. but i hope to.

[unexplained]

41.

Wow, great topic, Cecily. Thanks to Gigi for clarifying the doctrine; I knew the Church had cleared Mary Magdalene but wouldn't have had time to find the chapter and verse. Our parish actually celebrates her feast day (July 26), as she was the apostle to the apostles.

I'm too tired and short of time at the moment to add much, but wanted to recommend a book that very elegantly explores what the Bible says about various issues, and how it has been and is used on various sides of a wide array of arguments. It's "The Good Book," by Peter Gomes, a professor of divinity at Harvard who is African-American and, oh yeah, gay. The book covers slavery, temperance, homosexuality, and other issues.

I'm a devout Catholic who is really big on the right and responsibility of conscience. I disagree with the church on some issues, but then again I disagreed with the UU church on several issues. I've found it much easier to be a pro-gay Catholic than a pro-life Unitarian!

[Leggy]

42.

This is a fantastic post. I have also had religion on the brain recently and I am surprised to see that so many others do too, because I thought I was the only one. (Or at least the only one who thought about it in non-hard core right wing context.) I was particularly troubled after the election because it seemed that the Dems lost on "moral values" and it made me realize how hard it is to define your "moral values" when you see the world in shades of gray (no offense to you Republicans who do actually see some shades of gray re: gay marriage, etc.) It is something the Democrats must sieze on and must figure out how to communicate in a genuine way if they want to win in 2006 & 2008.

I grew up sort-of Catholic and there is a lot that I love about the Catholic Church (its messages of redemption and its ritual), but there is so much that drives me insane about it. (See "Sort of Spiritual Crisis" in my blog.) I was particularly struck by comments from both Sandys as their thoughts are similar to mine re: Catholicism. I love that term "Enraged Catholic." Maybe that's what I should list on my census form (in addition to "Enraged Democrat.") LOL!

[Kira]

43.

Wow, what a great discussion! I'm impressed by the respectful tone.
I am a Christian, and I always wince when people explain their antipathy for Christianity by pointing out the Christians who have screwed up in one way or another. Fortunately for us all, we believers aren't what we're worshipping. Thank God. Literally.
It's about Jesus, and as you said, He's a revolutionary. Read The Divine Conspiracy. Or just about any C.S. Lewis. Christianity has gotten mistaken with a cultural affiliation with niceness, which just isn't what it's about. The love we're supposed to espouse isn't mere niceness, it's a radical, aggressive giving of self.
Thanks for opening up a great discussion, Cicely. I was too shy to chime in on the "who are you" post, but this one made me delurk. You're a fabulous writer, and a person who fascinates me.

[Em]

44.

What a great post. When you mentioned you were going to talk about Jesus a few days ago, I was afraid it might be negative. I underestimated you, and I regret that. I've been reading your blog since October and you continue to amaze me.

Let me say I am a Christian and in answer to your question, I believe salvation is first, then good works is our expression of gratitude to God's amazing love and grace.

For those that doubt Christianity, please look to Christ, not his followers because we all make mistakes. We're still human. Read and search out the scriptures for yourselves. Read the book of John for starters.
Thanks Cicely, you are a conduit of the love of God.

[Ellen]

45.

I am moved to tears by this discussion. Young people talking about Jesus respectfully, earnestly, all seeking that intangible something, its so special.

I'm an older lady who left the Catholic church at 20, when its really hard to be a Catholic and for 30 years there never seemed time to include church in my busy Sunday schedule. Then gradually Jesus and Mary started nudging me back. When I returned 7 years ago this Easter, it was the most emotional experience of my life. I cried constantly-I'm crying now. Jesus is my lover, my comforter, my teacher, and yet, sometimes when I feel I need him the most, I can't find him, I can't connect. All of this because, I suppose, I am a human being with free will and whether its harboring hostility toward that new lady in choir with the bad voice or spending days angry and hostile with my husband, I am a sinner.
I also have lots of issues with the Catholic church as an institution. The biggest is that the leaders a long time ago forgot Jesus's last great message to them before he died, that being St. Peter's denial of Christ. "Never forget you are human", He said. Can you imagine, the rock of the Catholic church, the man set to be the leader, said he didn't know Jesus, not once but three times!! I believe Jesus wanted all to know that even St. Peter could be a sinner, no more or less than any other human being. I really believe this message has been lost by much of the leadership of the church. Fortunately for me the Catholic Church is the people, the many fine pastors to shepherd them and the spirituality. Its what sustains me.
Love is the way and yes, that homeless guy on the corner, who will take your money and then go buy more liquor is the face of Christ. The hardest, maybe the most impossible thing is to know in all cases the right thing to do. But the more we try the more we'll be rewarded, both here on earth as well as in the hereafter. God Bless you all! and keep up the dialog.

[Kathleen]

46.

In the NT, the Apostle Paul declares that homosexuals "shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Along with drunkards, adulterers, thieves, covetous persons, and a few other groups. Anyway, moving on...

I am not a Christian, but I'll put my two cents in.

If there is a God, I have to believe that God's love is greater than we can imagine. I do not believe that God would send every Jew, Buddhist, Agnostic, etc. to Hell simply because they were not "saved." And if it turns out I'm wrong? Well, eternity with a God that limited sounds a lot like Hell to me.

[Leslie]

47.

Cecily dear,

You never cease to amaze me. Which is why I love your blog so much. Three bibles? And you've read them too. I also went through an anti Jesus phase. Or, my "if Jesus is jewish, why does he have a mexican name?" phase. I used to love that joke.

This was reinforced by having had Catholicism shoved down my throat as a kid, seeing those around me behaving in a most non-Catholic way, and just the general hypocrisy of a few people who professed to be Christians.

Such as the neighbor woman who sported WWJD jewelry and such, then stiffed me for the money she owed me when I babysat her kids, and whose husband walked out on her after he discovered she was having an affair.

I think people achieve salvation through doing good works, and Buddha said many of the same things Jesus did. Truly, what goes around, comes around.

[wix]

48.

fabulous post. i will have to return to it (and the comments) when i am less insomniac. thank you.

[Carole W]

49.

Just as a note to RainbowW's comments and following, in 1854, Pope Pius IX's declaration (Ineffabilis Deus) clarified with finality the long-held belief of the Church that MARY was conceived free from original sin. Not Jesus! The idea that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus is a much older notion and one generally accepted in the early Church.

Not sure where I picked up that fact - I'm a pretty much an athesist brought up in pretty much agnostic household. But I did and there is it!

[Moxie]

50.

Rainbow, where do you get the idea that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene? I'm curious if that's from theological research or just the same Da Vinci Code stuff floating around there. IMO it would have made Jesus' mission difficult or even impossible if he had been married, because he was sent to love and serve us all, not to be dedicated to just one person (whether it was MM or John). But that's just my opinion, so if you have actual scholarly research I'd be interested in reading it.

[Mijk]

51.

have you read this book? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/According_to_Mary_Magdalene

In case the linkdoesn't work. I mean the book "According to Maria Magdelene by Mariane frederiksson. I think you would like it..

[Cricket]

52.

I think I can't comment, b/c I am now am atheist refugee from the cub scouts. On Saturday afternoon, I could not agree to the "GOD" part of the Scout Oath, so I was kicked out, even though I have been perfectly well behaved this last year my son's been in.

However, the cub scout leader did leave me a form in case I had a change of heart, ie wanted to compromise my morals and lie to the cub scouts. BTW, they allow anyone with a 'greater spirit belief system' in, such as witches, wiccans, devil worshippers, American Indians, Eastern religions. Doesn't matter if they say the word "GOD" or not. If I said I worshipped a blade of grass, I'd be in.

And, off topic a little, but I didn't realize that Cub Scouts are a don't ask, don't tell institution. They do allow 'quiet about it' homosexuals who do not bring partners or make pronouncements about it. Strange, I don't bring a "GOD" partner or make pronouncements about it and I am either booted out or have lie to stay in.

For an almost-seminary student who is well-versed/educated on theology, well enough versed, in fact, to chose atheism, this is all too frustrating. Your post struck a nerve.

[Dani]

53.

Wow, this was a really interesting topic. I've not only enjoyed reading your post but everyone's comments. I am a Christian, actually a missionary in Taiwan. I pray I'm not one of those loud angry Christians that leaves people with a bad taste in their mouth.
I really liked what 'usually a lurker" and Anne Basso said, it was perfect. Anne really made me laugh.
Jesus was truly a radical. He showed that relationships were of utmost importance to Him. Yes He was anti-sin-please-please-try-and-be-holy-follow-the-law-God. But mostly He showed and made it possible to have the relationship with God. For instance look at the emotions that He felt when He forgave, healed, raised from the dead. He cried, he felt, he spent time with. His message was thru me you can know the Father. It is because of our relationship with Him that we desire to please Him. Like a child trying to please their parents, or a mate to their spouse, out of love for that person. Rose asked why God wouldn't accept her good works if she didn't do it for Him, which I thought was a good question that many struggle with; it's because He is more concerned about our relationship with Him than how many "great" things that we do for Him.
Now on the other spectrum, some people take this message of "love" to far and give themselves a free pass to do as they please. Others ignore the message and treat others in ways Jesus would have never done. Although Jesus has standards He always treated others with love, kindness and respect. Notice the people He got really rude with were the church people and leaders, those that should have known better.
ok, enough, others have said much better than me. One book that I read awhile back The Poison Wood Bible really really made me think. I think the message was so clear there: a) zeal without knowledge is distructive b) works without love will always fall on dead ears.

[wessel]

54.

It is always important to make a distinction between the theological principles of a religion, and the behavior of practitioners of that religion. Obviously, a lot of evil has been done in the name of G-d, both in ancient times and in our times. In Judaism, we call that a "chillul Hashem," or a desecration of G-d.

It does seem to me, however, that it would be a distortion to put so much focus on the "love" element of biblical teachings, to the complete neglect of other, equally important elements, such as self-control, discipline, responsibility, delayed gratification, self-denial, self-sacrifice, commitment--the list could go on, but you get the idea. In Judaism, religion is not about emotions or feelings as much as it is about duty and responsibility, and understanding the sanctity of the law, and realizing the consequences of failing to uphold it. Even though Christianity is much more focused on emotional elements of salvation, and Jesus' teachings did certainly emphasize love for one's fellow man, Jesus was first a Jew, and therefore Christianity still shares a lot with Judaism in these other ways. It is important to remember that Jesus' primary audience were practicing, observing Jews. If he didn't stress some of the moral laws as much, it was because his audience was already familiar with them. He was not putting down the law or doing away with the law; he was merely trying to restore the concept of love, both brotherly and Divine, to the people, in addition to the law.

It is difficult, actually impossible, to say what I want to say in the brief context of a comment to a post, and even if I had all the space and time in the world, I doubt that I could do justice to this concept. My main point is that religion, Christianity, morality, or the teachings of Jesus are not just all about love and compassion and acceptance. Living morally, and this is true even if you have very liberal morals, involves judgement, judgement of yourself and others, in order to make distinctions between actions that are "good" and actions that are "not good." So judgement is something that no one can get away from, if they strive to lead a moral life by just about any definition. When you make judgements, there is likely to be someone, somewhere, who is going to take offense and feel hurt or angry. Jesus loved sinners, but he still called them sinners, right? He was making a judgement, pronouncing some actions as sin. Again, you can't get away from that. No matter how liberal you want to be, as I said, someone, somewhere, at some point in time, will think you are being a hateful fanatic. You may say, "well, then they are being unreasonable, because I'm pretty liberal and tolerant" but who is to say that your assessment is the correct one?

It is a fact that any religion, even a very liberal one, will place restrictions on human behavior, restrictions that will feel pretty, well, restrictive, to even the most casual, most occasional partaker. (The only way to do away with restrictions is to believe in nothing, in which case, you don't have a religion because you don't have a belief system anymore.) It is all fine and good to say that premarital heterosexual sex, or homosexual marriage, should be accepted. But at some point, will open marriage present itself to society for acceptance? I'm not here to argue a particular position or to have the simple slippery slope argument, but am using these examples only to illustrate an abstraction, that no matter how liberal you are today, YOU also have your lines in the sand, the point at which you feel something is just too much, or too radical. That is when society begins to feel the tension between absolute moralists on the one hand, and relative moralists on the other.

Anyway, have to stop there because I feel my thoughts drifting in too many different directions. One of the many reasons that I love Judaism is because it recognizes that there are many sides to G-d. There is His love, anger, mercy, compassion, feminine, masculine, judgement, punishment and strength. Only in acknowledging the role of all of these traits can we find moral balance.

[Jill]

55.

First let me say - what a bunch of grown-ups we are! How nice to have this tough conversation and keep it respectful.

I am a Christian who understands that man has screwed up religion. There has been more damage done in the name of God than anything. But that is MAN, not GOD.

I believe there is no way good works will get you into heaven. God's grace is free! None of us deserve heaven, no matter how much we try, because none of us is without sin.

Cecily, I'm sorry you were feeling low. I hope the week goes better for you.

[dish]

56.

Ok, am I the only one who is currently a bad Christian by being jealous that you had Trader Joe's treats this weekend? I love that store and the closest one is a 3 hour drive. So sad. I can totally polish off a bucket of the Crispy, Crunchy, Chocolate Chip Cookies. (drooooooooool)

On the religion thing- I don't know that I can really say that one is more important than the other. I usually think of the deeds as the outward thing and the salvation (or relationship to God aspects) as the internal things. Kind of like that passage that was raised earlier about praying in secret, not out on the street corner with yelling and waving. IMO, an individual can pray all they like, but if they are treating others with hostility, intolerance, or some other negative emotion, then they aren't really getting the point. It is better to be kind in your outreach to others and keep your relationship to God in your heart.

For example, I have always been very turned off by people coming up to me and wanting to invite me to their church. I have a church, thank you, and how dare you imply that your church is better. However, I once had a colleague ask where I went to church. After telling him I asked why he wanted to know. He said- you're always so nice and kind and I've been looking for a church. I would want to go somewhere with people like you. It's the old actions speaking louder than words.

[Debe]

57.

When I saw on the news that they gave Easter Eggs to the gorillas at the zoo, I told D "well, doesn't that just make you think about Jesus".

I try to live a good life and let others live their lives, too. I have a hard time with the exclusionary idea that there is only one path to God. I'm grateful as I know how to be that AA introduced me to the "God of my understanding"

[Blue]

58.

Great post!

You asked if salvation was more important than doing good works. In my own life, being an atheist, I have chosen good works. (For a believer I think that by doing good works one might secure their own salvation?)

I do not believe that Jesus taught hate, discrimination or intollerance. Unfortunately, this is what I hear preached (spouted off) which turns my stomach and is part of the reason I left the church.

I am much happier knowing that I am living a good life than questioning my every thought, word and deed and wondering how I might be judged for it later. If I get a lump of coal in my stocking at Christmas I know I pissed off Santa, that is good enough measure for me. :0)

[elizabeth]

59.

I’m an Orthodox Jew and I converted from Christianity. For me, I always had a problem with the Trinity. I just couldn’t get past it. While taking courses in Jewry, I discovered the Old Testament could be interpreted much differently than the Christian way. For instance take “an eye for an eve and a tooth for a tooth.” Judaism interprets that, as the punishment should fit the crime. Suppose I harm you and that harm can be rectified by $100, then the punishment can’t exceed $100. It doesn’t have anything to do with capital punishment. In general the Jewish interpretation only allows capital punishment when certain unlikely criteria are met, i.e. there must be at least two male witnesses that are not related, the witnesses must warn you before you commit the crime, etc. I was amazed that the Old Testament was not full of contradictions. It’s also hard to interpret the Written Torah (the Old Testament) without the Oral Torah (Talmud). I also don’t like the anti-homosexual stance as I believe in tolerance. However, the anti-homosexual stance only pertains to men who are Jews. If Paul could get rid of circumcision, the kosher laws, the Sabbath laws, etc., why couldn’t he have gotten rid of the anti-homosexual laws? Homosexuality isn’t even part of the seven Noachide laws (The seven fundamental laws were commanded by God, through Moses. They outline the ethical and moral responsibilities of all mankind.)

You wrote “In fact, if tolerance, patience, a love of our fellows and an open heart means being a Christian, then sign me up.” Don’t all religions, not the far-right extremist ones, teach that?

Being a Jew, I obviously choose good deeds (Mitzvahs). Have you ever noticed that the more good you do, the more good things happen to you? Or the more bad things you do, the more bad things happen to you? I admire your questioning. Don’t let anyone tell you that shouldn’t question religion. You should always question it until you understand it.

[Amanda]

60.

I'm an agnostic libertarian and refuse to even touch the jesus issue. You're brave. But it also takes bravery to walk into Whole Foods every week to buy overpriced organics for my toddler EVEN THOUGH I VOTED FOR W. If my secret ever gets out while I'm in there, they're going to tar me with organic honey and roll me in bulgar wheat. I just know it.

[Catherine]

61.

"It is all fine and good to say that premarital heterosexual sex, or homosexual marriage, should be accepted. But at some point, will open marriage present itself to society for acceptance? I'm not here to argue a particular position or to have the simple slippery slope argument, but am using these examples only to illustrate an abstraction, that no matter how liberal you are today, YOU also have your lines in the sand, the point at which you feel something is just too much, or too radical."

Wessel, I can't argue with this, although I'd really, really like to. I mean, to me, there's nothing at all wrong with open marriage (in fact, I think one could argue that it's already been presented to society and accepted, depending on where you live and in what circles you travel), but you're right, there is always judgment, no matter how liberal one is, unless one is a sociopath and believes everything is okay, including murder, rape, and child molestation.

I guess as a society we have to decide what we will accept and of course, that's why the country is so divided right now. Here's one issue that it seems to divide right down the middle on: I can't possibly understand why anyone would have a problem with homosexuality. I don't get it. Even with abortion, which is my "hot button issue" and which I am militantly pro-choice, I can see it from the other side's point of view. I think they're wrong, but I can understand why they feel the way they do.

But homosexuality...I don't get it! What difference does it make what they want to do? They're not affecting anyone else! Like, with abortion, anti-choice people think the fetus is a baby or whatever, I can understand that they think abortion is murder (even tho I will contend with all my breath that it's not). But homosexuality?? Can some Christian person explain this to me, please? And of course we're not going by the old bible stuff that says it's an abomination or whatever, because they also say you shouldn't mix shellfish or something...all those old laws that just don't apply anymore. Here's that list we've probably all read:

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

So anyway, my point is, we obviously don't follow the bible the way it was written anymore, that's ridiculous. So can someone tell me an actual reason for thinking homosexuality is a sin? I'm serious, I'm not trying to be confrontational, I just don't get it. Help me out here.

[elizabeth]

62.

Catherine- You wrote c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

The answer: First off uncleanliness is a poor translation. The issue is coming in touch with death of the ova making a woman inpure. Once a woman starts AF, she must wait a minimum of five days, until she can start counting her seven clean days. Then she can purify herself in the mikvah. For example, when a jew leaves a cemetery, she/he pours water over her hands three times, because she's/he's been around death. To put a positive spin on the mikvah, I like the time that I'm nidah(can't be touched), it makes my husband show other ways of loving me other than just sexual. Also with a forced 12 day hiatus, it creates a yearn to have sex again. Kind of like you're on a diet, but you want that chocolate.

Sacrafices aren't required now, because there isn't a Temple. Burnt down by the Romans.

[Leia]

63.

something else to note about the bible is that it's been translated into about four different languages, and that's BEFORE they started translating into the vernacular. If you've ever studied languages you know that it is IMPOSSIBLE to directly translate one language to another. And every time you try, meaning gets lost. The Bible has been translated from Aramaic, to Hebrew, to Greek, to Latin, to the many existing vernacular languages.

[Erin]

64.

Wow, what a great post!

A brief word about Mary Magdalene... I read a book (historical fiction) called "Mary Called Magdalene" by Margaret George, who has written other historical fiction novels about Cleopatra, Mary Queen of Scots, and Henry VIII. It was absolutely fascinating. The book discussed the life of Mary Magdalene (with the author noting that she invented the stories of the younger years of Mary Magdalene, seeing as there's no record of her childhood) and her interactions with Jesus. She, along with another woman, were disciples of Jesus. (Yes, I know, we can't be sure of any of this, other than Margaret George intensely researches her subject.) The idea is right in line with Jesus being radical, especially in the days when women had no rights. (Heck, the idea would have been radical 100 years ago.) Anyway, in my opinion, it was a wonderful picture of the life and times of Jesus... what it was like to live back then, how he met his disciples, how he met Mary Magdalene, his preachings, his final days, and the immediate aftermath. I do not doubt that any of those stories are false.

Anyway, this was a great post! Just thought I'd mention the book in case there are any other book dorks out there (like me) who would be interested.

[Ninotchka]

65.

Reason #1 zillion why I love reading you, Cec. Great, brave, wonderful post. Thank you.

You ask: What’s more important, salvation or doing good works?

I think doing good works. Not GREAT works (although that's nice too) but GOOD works. Every day. Doing the best you can. Being a loving and kind spouse, friend, sister, mother, (insert title here).

I was told this weekend that if I don't accept Jesus as my Savior then I won't be "saved." Or get into heaven or whatever else. Certainly something to ponder. I have my own (not terribly original or unique) ideas about God, Jesus, heaven, LIFE, etc.

But yeah, doing good works, well, how can that be bad?

[JuliaKB]

66.

I have been reading all the replies to this great post since yesterday, and I have finally decided that I am ready to jump in and comment myself.

I am a Jew. I was born in the former Soviet Union, so I was raised in an atheist way. We thought of being Jewish as a nationality. In fact, it was reflected as such on every official document we ever had to fill out, including an application for an after-school activity. But that is a story for another day.

I am only saying this to introduce my journey from Jew as a nationality to agnostic, to a comfortable but questioning Conservative Jew. The whole journey is too long, so I will just highlight a few of the reasons I am comfortable now.

First, we are encouraged to question. I couldn't possibly feel comfortable in a religion where I am not encouraged to struggle with every aspect. Have you heard the phrase "two Jews, three opinions?" Well, it's really much like that.

Second, there is very little by way of a Jewish theology, esspecially with respect to the afterlife. It's more like a constelation of theologies, and it is easier to define what is outside of the acceptable realm of Judaism in that sense than to list things that are in it.

My husband, for example, is most comfortable with the Reconstructionist view that God is really the voice inside us, the way we know what is right and what is wrong. This view has pull for me as well, but it's not the complete description of my theology.

Third, I also like the non-judgemental approach of my denomination. All of Judaism for example believes that righteous of all nations shall have a portion of the world to come. This is the whole 7 Noahite Laws thing. For Jews, on the other hand, there are many more laws. And the denominations differ on how strictly they cling to the halakha. I am not comfortable with the Orthodox answer to this question, but I respect those who are. Except those who are militantly Orthodox, like a kid in college who told us we were not real Jews, because we were not Orthodox. Exteremists of all kinds don't sit well with me, so it's not surprising that Jewish ones bother me.

Finally, a story. I am taking a two year course at my temple that is run from Hebrew college. 2 years, 4 subjects, 100 hours of Jewish learning. Instructors are all faculty at local universities, and boy did we luck out with our line up. Anyway, last year first up was Bible. The prof was a department head at a university here, and he was a strict academic. He was into deconstructing sources and reading the Bible as a historical document, in the context of when, by whom, for whom was any piece of it written or edited.

I can't tell you how liberating it was to be able to see that the Bible is a product of at least four authors, that each obviously has a slant. What that told me is that it came to us through human filters, and it is only reasonable to understand that some were cleaner than others and to ask what was the agenda of each of these authors and editors in their time and place.

Now, this course tends to ruffle a lot of feathers for those who have not questioned much, or those who believed in infallability of the doctrine. So we had a session with the rabbi to talk about it. He said that he personally likes to see whether there is something to be gained spiritually from looking at the whole text. But he also said that given where I came from (Communism WAS the organised religion in the USSR), he can clearly see why I am more comfortable with the ability to take the Torah apart. And that's OK. I am still Jewish when I do that. I love that part.

I also had a lot to say about the Rabbinics section, for the same reason. I questioned the authority, and I am still Jewish. And this year, I learned that that Spinoza was kicked out of the faith for questioning. It was also very interesting to me that the tradition he came from is similar to where I came from. He was from a Morano community-- Inqusition converts, who went back to Judaism after 100 years. Obviously, while living in secret, they had to teach their children to question everything if they wanted them to continue their way of life. So when they went back, they continued to question. But many of his ideas are now fairly well accepted.

I guess this is a bit far from the Jesus question. I think this is all a round-about way of saying that I am with the works crowd. Prophetic tradition, baby (to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God). We are called to be God's partners in creation in this world, not to argue about who loves God more.

It's hard for me to talk about God. I don't think that I have it 100% figured out. But I am open to the possibility that I am wrong on some things. It greatly upsets me to see people who repeat their particular denomination's doctrine as THE TRUTH, and refuse to see that they could be wrong. I just don't know what to say to those people. I haven't yet spoken to my 3 year old about God. We do Shabbat every week, and she can say all the blessings, and she lights the candles by herself (I light the match, she lights the candles). But we haven't spoken about God. I feel like it's too big and personal to unload on her. She tries to understand everything, and I don't have the answers. I think she will get there when it's time.

Sorry for hogging the comments. But just one last thing.

Elisabeth says
"Have you ever noticed that the more good you do, the more good things happen to you? Or the more bad things you do, the more bad things happen to you?"

Actually, no. In fact, I see no relation whatsoever. And this statement actually upsets me. Because what it seems to imply is that the bad things that happen to us are the result of us doing something wrong. As in, my miscarriage must have been that old lady I kicked in the shins. Or my grandfather being injured in a way that left him paralized and eventually killed him must have been all the horrible things he said on the daily basis. Which he did not.

In my experience, the most horrible things actually happen to the nicest people. I can tell you one thing I do NOT believe in, and that is the points system, God sitting upstairs keeping track of what each of us does or doesn't do each day, and assigning rewards and punishments accordingly. Just saying.

[elizabeth]

67.

Julia,

Please let me be clearer. I wasn't referring about "bad things" being miscarriage, illness, death,etc. I don't thing God judges that way. I was referring more to the destructive things that we do. I'm going extreme here, but like drinking too much and DWI and then killing someone. Dating unavailable partner's and then wondering why one is not in a stable, available loving relationship. Speaking a lot of hurtful gossip and it getting back to the person one didn't want to hurt. If one didn't drink, date unavailable partners or gossip those things would never happen. However, if one neighbor looks after another elderly neighbor, not much but knocking on their door to see how they are doing or offering a cup of coffee. Personally, opening my Shabbat table to a widow once in a while makes me more compassionate and understanding. Those same qualities may come in handy when I'm negotiating a deal and I'm better able to understand the other side's issues. Recently, I've been offering stuff that I no longer need on freecycle.org. When I receive emails from people saying thanks for those used sheets, my 5 yo was sleeping on shredded sheets or thank you for the baby clothes, I only had one outfit that I was washing in the sink every night. It makes me realize how incredibly fortunate I am and climb out of my dark, downward depressed spiral. I'm so sorry that I upset you. I don't believe in the point system either.

[JuliaKB]

68.

Elizabeth,

I am very glad to see your clarification. I have come in contact with many who belive in the point system, and I am sorry I read your comment in that way. The things you talk about, they are more like immidiate consequences, and I certainly sign up for that view.
And I have to say-- guests for Shabbat are the best part of the week :).

[Jody]

69.

I was raised Lutheran and continue to worship and serve in a Lutheran church. Unlike my LDS friends (we have had some great debates on this), I was taught to believe that our good works will not in any way contribute to our salvation. Why not? Because there's simply no way that any of our good works could ever be good enough for God. God's grace, God's love, does the work for us. We are saved by grace through faith.

Luther was a vicious anti-Semite who more or less encouraged the violent suppression of the Peasant Rebellion in Germany, so let's not get carried away by the guy's insights. But one thing he experienced that has rung true to me for many years is this: I try to do good, but I fail. I try to will myself to do good, but my will is not strong enough. But thanks to God's grace, I am still saved, and still loved, even though I fail to follow God's commandments of love every day.

That's why Lutherans teach that the works follow the faith: because without the faith, which comes through grace, we wouldn't have the will to do the works. Even with the faith, our will fails us. But faith without works is empty, and without meaning. So we keep trying, failing, and trusting in God's love and grace.

As for the rest of your post: the Christian Church in all its incarnations has failed and continues to fail again and again. Its failures and its sins have caused the deaths of countless hundreds of millions, "by what we have done and by what we have left undone." It's just impossible to justify or explain away any of it. There's no defense. I'm sure Jesus is mightily angry, and not at all surprised, and who knows the reckoning.

What I do like are the words of this song:
We are the Church
The body of our Lord
We are all God's children
And we have been restored.

[Molly]

70.

My response is on my blog.

[wessel]

71.

Catherine, I just wanted to say regarding your list of verses from the Torah that seem "ridiculous" today--Talmudic scholars can explain every single one of them, and why certain punishments are not required in post 2nd Temple times. Most of the punishments, particularly the more severe ones such as capital punishment, can only be ordered by the Sanhedrin, or the counsel of 70 judges that preside only when the Temple is in existence. When the Temple was destroyed, the Sanhedrin was eliminated, and consequently, none of those punishments are relevant today.

Also, there are a number of mitzvot (which are literally translated as "commandments" and not as "good deeds" which is the popular translation today but is not actually correct) that are not in effect today because they only apply as long as the Temple is standing (as Elizabeth pointed out).

So do take care not to call the Torah ridiculous! I know that you didn't mean any offense and I hope I am not causing any offense in return--just to point out that Torah and Talmud scholars have a lot to say about all these issues, and if you just read a tiny portion from the Hebrew scriptures, in the absence of the Oral Torah (again, as Elizabeth pointed out), then you are not getting anywhere near the whole picture, and you cannot make a valid criticism unless you have that broader perspective. Unfortunately, Christianity tends to take the Hebrew scriptures ALONE, and they were never intended to be seen in isolation from the Oral Torah, and interprets them literally, another thing that Judaism never intended.

Did you ever have the experience in highschool or college literature class where you were assigned a book and you thought, "man, what nonsense this is" and then you went to class, heard the lecture, which was brilliant, and you said to yourself, "whoah, I guess I better go read that again--how could I have so misjudged?"

That is the experience of studying Torah with a knowledgeable person after first having read it all by yourself.

[Maryann]

72.

I think Robert Heinlein had the right idea in "Stranger in a Strange Land", "Friday", "JOB: A Comedy of Justice", and "I Will Fear No Evil". Oh, and "Time Enough for Love". Under the guise of Science Fiction, he actually wrote what I like to call really great "social fiction". These are all great books with an underlying message about how people should treat each other in an ideal world - and how we tend to screw it up much of the time.

Bottom line, I thnk "Actions Speak Louder than Words"

Great post, Great topic. Cheers! Maryann

["Anne"]

73.

I enjoyed this post. You can check my site, but basically I am a blue value girl living in a red state. (I think I tried to make this point in my post "You Vamp!" which otherwise has nothing to do with religion at all.) tinykingdom.typepad.com. Sorry i suck at making links. I blame it on Mozilla.

Sojourners has a weekly email they send out, which often comments on current events in the context of Christianity. NOT in a hysterical, Tom DeLay (or Roy Moore) way, but sensibly.

I, too, am a big Anne Lamott fan and cannot wait to read her latest.

Just wanted you to know that this lady in Ala (The land of Roy Moore, no less!) is right there with ya!
"Anne Glamore"

[Rachel]

74.

Hi Cecily,

Wow, good post. I believe that faith and works go hand in hand. Without works, our faith is dead, Jesus said, but other verses clearly state that to enter heaven you must have faith. John 3:16 is the classic verse everyone quotes.

You talked about the anti-gay crap. I don't see Jesus as being anti-gay. He hates the sin, but loves the sinner, so to speak. The Bible clearly states that being homosexual is wrong. The Bible also clearly states that cheating on your wife is wrong. It is amazing to me that the church would much rather focus on the homosexuality part than the cheating on your wife or husband part. It is alot easier to point the finger at a gay person than to look at yourself and see the things in your own life you need to change.

In college, I had a friend struggling with his homosexuality since day one. I had other friends who were the leaders of a campus church of sorts. My blood boiled one day when I heard them saying how "gross" he was and how they thought his homosexual urges were deplorable. This after "pretending" to be his friend. I explained to Alex that I didn't know what he was going through, and I believed that his being homosexual was wrong, but I was still his friend. And he respected me and I respected him, and we are still friends.

I was turned off by their hypocrisy in a major way. It made my blood boil. I wanted to rip off their WWJD bracelets and throw them out the window.

You're right, Jesus was awesome. I am realizing more and more as well that the people in life I would love to emulate are those who follow Jesus' example. Not only do they believe he is the son of God, they put His words into action. So many "Houses of God" miss this entirely.

Am I a Christian? Yes. Would you consider me a right-wing conservative? Most definitely. Do I have a brain? Yes. Am I annoyed as you are by the misinterpretation of Jesus' words and actions that humans use for their own gain? Yes.

I love this passage...my favorite one in the Bible. Although God is a God of compassion, he is also a God of justice. Jesus really "brings it" and puts people in their place...Jesus preached peace and Goodwill, but He also preached that if you rejected Him, He would reject you. Wow.

I love the part about everything that is done in secret coming to light. I think of the BTK killer here in the Kansas/Missouri area who was a church member for many years. His darkness was brought to the light, as this verse states. OK, I'm rambling. Yeah, Jesus was an awesome guy and I want him to be the Lord o fmy life. I am working on that part. I often ask myself, why is it so much easier for me to turn on the tv than to read my Bible? Is it becdause I'm afraid of what the teachings of Jesus might ask me to do or sacrifice?

26“So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny[d]? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

32“Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

34“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn “ ‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother, a daughterinlaw against her motherinlaw–
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.’[e]

37“Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Love,
Rachel

[LHB]

75.

This is the first time I've been on this blog. You expressed your thoughts on this controversial topic so eloquently. I am a Christian and I often struggle with many of the things you wrote about. I have always felt that living a life of kindness and good deeds was a way to minister to others. To show rather then tell of God's grace. Fundamentally, I do believe that one should be saved by Christ, but these two things are not/should not be mutually exclusive. It is important to embody all of God's ways into our lives, whether it is going on a mission trip or being kind to a stranger on the bus. I know that people here believe very different things and I completely respect that. I am the first to say that I am not always the kindest person. I mean, sometimes I can be a real bitch. Hee.
I just wanted you to know that I think it is commendable that you were able to put yourself out there in such an understanding yet firm way.
Thanks so much for the post.

[KimK]

76.

Hi! I am a few days behind since I was on vacation so now I am catching up. I just wanted to give my quick opinion. I am a Christian and have been inductively studying the Bible though Precept Upon Precept Ministry courses for about 3 years now. The more I study the more I realize how amazing the Bible is--not just as the word of God but as literature as well. I love your questioning, your frustration and confusion about Jesus since I was there once too. Keep it up. You will find the truth.
I am definitely not one to preach. This is actually the first time I have ever "talked" to anyone non-Christian about God or my beliefs. Since you asked about works or salvation--that one is easy. The Bible is very clear that good works won't get a person into heaven. Also after much studying I have learned that the God of the Old Testament is the same God as the New Testament, there aren't any contradictions, and yes, there was WAY too much stoning going on. :) Take care. KimK

[Anne]

77.

The basic message of Jesus was a good one; it’s just his messengers that have been frequently been full of crap.

I don’t know how I managed to get such a liberal religious upbringing by going to Catholic school most of my life but the 2 most import things I got out of it were: the bible is not the literal word of God the bible is Man’s account of the word of God (just imagine I learned this from a nun!) and my favorite hymn that had a line that went, “they will know we are Christians by our love.”

BTW I loved reading all the comments by everyone (the benefits to not getting around to commenting until way after the fact), it’s so nice to see people having such a frank and respectful discussion about God, Jesus, the Bible, and faith. I really wish we could do this in the real world.

[Christian]

78.

Oohhh...glad I found your site! I was searching for blogs talking about Anne Lammott and it looks like I've found a good one.

I'm currently reading through her book and enjoying it - an exerpt and some thoughts here: http://seelifedifferently.blogspot.com/2005/04/damascus-road.html

Gotta run now but I'll drop in again soon...

[Confused]

79.

How do you attract so many posts? By musing on your own confusion and mixed up mind? And all the "helpful" christians" chime in with their two cents. And all the "helpful" non-anti-un-ex-christians weigh in with theirs.

An exercise in mass futility.

Jealous, I am.